Author Topic: Item Balance  (Read 2728 times)

Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Item Balance
« on: 04.10.2014, 11:23:29 »
Let’s talk about balance.
When I played on our Server again yesterday, it was not really fun to play.
And it’s not the W:ET I liked.

In W:ET (as in any other good competitive game) each item you can use has its pros and cons, has its strong sides and its counters.

With a panzerfaust you only have a pistol as your secondary weapon, and you can only shoot one at once at the start. On our nitmod configuration, you can shoot two and have an SMG as well - eliminating all downsides.

Landmines can only be placed on specific parts of the map to prevent unpassable passages. Where they can be placed, if you activate them and survive by jumping of - as a medic you survive, as an engineer you can still be revived. They can be spotted by a covert ops. They then can be exploded by grenades. Engineer can defuse them - and easily reach them doing that.
Lasermines are a big problem. They do not have any counters. You activate them, you splat. As anything besides engineer , you can do nothing except die to detonate them - and when you're back, they were placed again. Even as engineer they are sometimes very hard to reach - behind a corner or up on the ceiling, where you have to jump to even reach it. And worse of all, the laser mines can easily and entirely block any entrance - they can be placed anywhere on any walls.
I’m fine with not seeing them and dying. But not having any counter for them with their power is just bullshit.

Rifle grenades. Once you shot rifle grenades you are left with the rifle, a strong but non-automatic and less accurate weapon compared to SMGs.
Not on our server though. After Shooting two rifle nades, you can still either use your rifle for strong close combat, or switch to your SMG for any other situation.

Another big issue for me is the hit detection. Bad hit detection all right, but the lying hit boxes are total BS. Whenever someone lies down I feel like rage-quitting, because hits don’t detect.
I remember from some time ago that I had to shoot feet in order to register any shots.
I would love to analyse and fix theses - but that would require some time sadly. They are sooo bad.


Other things I noticed, that are not necessarily too bad:

In W:ET as I know it, you can actually use grenades to fight.
The skill of ticking nades the right amount of time, and then throwing them in someones face to instantly gib or at least kill them is totally nullified. I did some nice grenades yesterday. None killed anyone.
On our server, the only useful use for grenades I can see now is spam-throwing them into the direction of the enemy, just to maybe do some damage - no skill involved - or to throw them at objectives.
I always loved nadeing. Not possible here.

I am wondering right now if double-jump works the way it should work. Currently, a second jump can only be performed if you are still on the rising part of your first jump. Would it not be more fun if it still worked at any part of the jump (being in the air)? Any reason for it not to work like that?


What I would like to ask you is, first of all, do you have fun on the server?
Do you see these issues as I do? Or are all those skills and items you can use what makes it fun? (I much prefer the classic 0-levels at the start of the round - fair start for everyone.)
« Last Edit: 30.11.2016, 17:06:11 by Kissaki »

ヤン

[DooC] Murdah

  • Member
  • Lord
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #1 on: 04.10.2014, 13:40:58 »
Well i agree your point especially when enemy goes down to ground , the hitboxes are fcked up, And the laser landmines are just way too op in maps like siwa oasis. You can actually place them in a way that you cant defuse them

Rest of the server seems to be okay to me but i dont mind if there comes changes wich would retrieve W:ET's originality


Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #2 on: 04.10.2014, 14:09:03 »
I tried debugging hitboxes locally, and from what I saw they seem fine. Those could be wrong though.
I’d like to test them with someone on our server by experimentation.

ヤン

krieger1984

  • Member
  • Triple As
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #3 on: 04.10.2014, 20:22:14 »
Hallo Kissaki,

hins. deines Beitrages stimme ich dir voll und ganz zu. Viel Spaß macht das nicht mehr.

Ich kann nur aus meinen Erfahrungen, in meiner Zeit auf einem anderen Server berichten und dort konnte man bspw. Laser Minen per Handgranate zerstören und musste sich nicht opfern, um den Weg bspw. für einen Techniker frei zu machen.

Ich denke eine Veränderung wäre nicht schlecht.

Beste Grüße

Krieger


Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #4 on: 04.10.2014, 20:43:10 »
Does nitmod call them tripmines?
I just checked the cvar list. Nothing named laser mines. But land- and poison gas landmines, and trip mines.
Quote
g_damageweapons
32 : Tripmines can be damaged
I like that.
There is a lot more as well, like damaging air strike canisters and satchel charges, etc. I would like to enable that.

ヤン

[DooC] Murdah

  • Member
  • Lord
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #5 on: 04.10.2014, 21:47:03 »
sounds awesome, but most of all fixing the hitboxes on enemys while theyre laying on ground would be awesome, its freaking annyoing when you cant actually hit em when they are like that 1+

$n!p3d

  • Member
  • King
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #6 on: 04.10.2014, 21:58:42 »

With a panzerfaust you only have a pistol as your secondary weapon, and you can only shoot one at once at the start. On our nitmod configuration, you can shoot two and have an SMG as well - eliminating all downsides.

In the standard game though you get that too at level 4 heavy weapons

Does nitmod call them tripmines?
I just checked the cvar list. Nothing named laser mines. But land- and poison gas landmines, and trip mines.
Quote
g_damageweapons
32 : Tripmines can be damaged
I like that.
There is a lot more as well, like damaging air strike canisters and satchel charges, etc. I would like to enable that.

i think this would be a good solution to the laser mine problem. as you said they can be very annoying especially as a non engineer.

Another big issue for me is the hit detection. Bad hit detection all right, but the lying hit boxes are total BS. Whenever someone lies down I feel like rage-quitting, because hits don’t detect.
I remember from some time ago that I had to shoot feet in order to register any shots.
I would love to analyse and fix theses - but that would require some time sadly. They are sooo bad.

Well there are a number of options for this one. perhaps we should experiment which is best on war server?


In W:ET as I know it, you can actually use grenades to fight.
The skill of ticking nades the right amount of time, and then throwing them in someones face to instantly gib or at least kill them is totally nullified. I did some nice grenades yesterday. None killed anyone.
On our server, the only useful use for grenades I can see now is spam-throwing them into the direction of the enemy, just to maybe do some damage - no skill involved - or to throw them at objectives.
I always loved nadeing. Not possible here.

cant say i have noticed this as much. had a couple ones today on server which seemed to work.

I am wondering right now if double-jump works the way it should work. Currently, a second jump can only be performed if you are still on the rising part of your first jump. Would it not be more fun if it still worked at any part of the jump (being in the air)? Any reason for it not to work like that?

I think we should perhaps consider the removal of double jump all together?

Overall the one thing that gets to me is where i am regularly getting panzered. it can get so frustrating. i know its part of the game but sometimes its all certain players seem to do.
 
Other Suggestions:
1. Reduce the 30hp health regain from med packs to 20hp. As a result killing a medic will also drop 3 instead of 2 health packs. Will stop self healing.
2. Probably most controversially allow spawnkilling. I know I know but people will then stop whining about what is sk and what is not. Perhaps increase invulnerability so help against camping.
3. Knifing instantly taps out people waiting to be revived

Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #7 on: 05.10.2014, 00:03:06 »
Personally, I don’t think healing is a problem.
When I get gibbed all the time, I can’t even heal. Also depends on the map and teams though, if you get insta-gibbed al the time.

I never understood why double jump. W:ET already has the quake like strafe-jumping which makes it quite a fast movement. All the maps are made for single-jump, not with double jump in mind.

The default 3s spawn protection works great with standard W:ET. We have a problem though with all the explosives (rifles, panzerfaust, mines, double-length artillery, double-airstrike).
Generally, I would like to drop any spawn killing rule in favor of just pointing to the spawn protection. Not sure if that works with all the max-levels and explosives though.


/e:
The Nitmod hitboxes displayed in ET:L as a gif

The box edges seem to be drawn as particles with a disappearance timespan - thus showing where it was in the past as well.
« Last Edit: 05.10.2014, 01:53:17 by Kissaki »

ヤン

[DooC] Murdah

  • Member
  • Lord
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #8 on: 05.10.2014, 03:50:41 »
cant wait to get to test fixed lying hitboxes :333

krieger1984

  • Member
  • Triple As
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #9 on: 13.10.2014, 16:01:41 »
Hi guys  :] ,

(Writen by Sniped)

"Overall the one thing that gets to me is where i am regularly getting panzered. it can get so frustrating. i know its part of the game but sometimes its all certain players seem to do."

Sniped i can understand that your are getting a bit frustrating, but on the other hand it is also frustrating for other player, who are not so good as you. For example i was on the server without my loving panza and i was killed 10 times and made only one kill. Believe me, that is frustrating. With the panza i have a good chance also to kill another player. And i am not the only player on the server who is not such a good player then you or others. It would be nice that the panza could stay in the game and so the not so good player for example me have also a chance to kill something.

Please let the panza stay in the game! ;(

Krieger

[DooC] Murdah

  • Member
  • Lord
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #10 on: 13.10.2014, 16:31:40 »
Double jump for panzer is kind of ability to raise enormously your change to hit whit the panzer ammo on your enemy, does any else weapon get more change to hit while double jumping? No :)

krieger1984

  • Member
  • Triple As
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #11 on: 13.10.2014, 18:11:37 »
  ?(8o

Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #12 on: 13.10.2014, 19:46:42 »
Quote
g_damageweapons
Bitflag to enable ability to shoot some weapons to damage and destroy them
1 : Hand grenades can be damaged
2 : Satchel charges can be damaged
4 : Airstrike markers can be damaged
8 : Smoke canisters can be damaged
16 : Bombs can be damaged
32 : Tripmines can be damaged
64 : Poison gas canisters can be damaged
Default: 0
We currently have 0.
Any argument against enabling all of them?
What is meant by bombs?

I went ahead and set it to 127.

/e:
Btw, last week(end?) I tested lying hitboxes with Supermeetboy and FuckBird for a brief moment.
They seemed perfectly fine.
A day later, when I was on the server again, the hitboxes of someone else seemed totally off again. I wonder if it has something to do with fancy settings or higher ping or something.
« Last Edit: 13.10.2014, 19:50:46 by Kissaki »

ヤン

$n!p3d

  • Member
  • King
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #13 on: 13.10.2014, 19:57:55 »
bombs are very explosive cannisters engis get 1 of. i am fine with that

XXXX

  • Member
  • Forum As
  • ****
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #14 on: 15.10.2014, 18:31:46 »

/e:
Btw, last week(end?) I tested lying hitboxes with Supermeetboy and FuckBird for a brief moment.
They seemed perfectly fine.
A day later, when I was on the server again, the hitboxes of someone else seemed totally off again. I wonder if it has something to do with fancy settings or higher ping or something.

that's because g_antiwarp is enabled

Kissaki

  • Leader
  • Forum God
  • *****
  • Posts: 10.306
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Item Balance
« Reply #15 on: 15.10.2014, 19:52:54 »

/e:
Btw, last week(end?) I tested lying hitboxes with Supermeetboy and FuckBird for a brief moment.
They seemed perfectly fine.
A day later, when I was on the server again, the hitboxes of someone else seemed totally off again. I wonder if it has something to do with fancy settings or higher ping or something.

that's because g_antiwarp is enabled
That does not make sense.
g_antiwarp is a server setting. And both occurances were on our nitmod server.

ヤン